Greetings:
We have a section in our show this year that will call for the main body of the form to move in two (2) against the edges of the form, which is dissolving away, moving in three (3) so I really need to figure out how to push the center in 2 against 3... any thoughts or suggestions? Right now I'm trying to move the center in 2, while independently morphing the edges away in 3.... so that by the time the center of the form 'arrives' only the few performers in the center are still in a front, while the other performers have 'melted away'...
Thanks in advance...
Split Tempo Movement?
Moderator:PywareTechSupport
David R. Wilson
North Thurston High School
Solstice Colorguard & Winterguard
North Thurston High School
Solstice Colorguard & Winterguard
Re: Split Tempo Movement?
are you trying to do this merely for the sake of seeing it animated? or is it just to calculate the step sizes for the people going 3's and the people going 2's?
I may have an idea, but it's somewhat complex.
I may have an idea, but it's somewhat complex.
Re: Split Tempo Movement?
David,
This was actually something I started messing with last summer but never got to finish. It happens to be something I brought up a long time ago, either with Pyware or some other designers, and there was no way to actually do it...
Fortunately, I found that there IS a way to do it, but it would involve some patience and some extra math.
If you are doing this for animation purposes, here is a solution I came up with. You might laugh or think this is ridiculous, but this is the only way to possibly do it, I believe.
Since we're wanting to use a 3 against 2, the math here would suggest we need to break this down into some sort of subdivision. If you look at how this would line up musically, you would have something like this:
And when you subdivide it, the constant is the 8th note - which suggests we need to think in terms of 6's. (common denominator??? I forgot middle school math
) Breaking it down would be like this musically:
.....which in turn means we have to think of the drill along the lines of a page tab on each count - meaning you would have to switch from the strong beat per count, to then tapping the space bar per 8th note beat. (confusing, I know).
Lets say the move is 12 counts for the 3's, which would mean 8 counts for the 2's. You would set a page tab per count (insert them, perhaps... shouldn't screw up the drill - but you would have to redo the mp3 sync), and when you have this example number of counts, the page tabs would total 24 between starting set and the end of the ONE move. Although there are 24 page tabs in between, this would only be 12 for the 3's and 8 for the 2's.
The next breakdown is making sure the 12 and 8 line up with the 8th notes. The way this works is you'd have to look it at and how it lines up the way the music is on my second picture - remembering to break it down into an 8th note subdivision. This would mean the following:
Group A - moves 12 steps - move 1, hold 1, move 1, hold 1, etc.
Group B - moves 8 steps - move 1, hold 2, move 1, hold 2, etc.
(these notes on "move 1, hold 1" etc. are in reference to the PAGE TABS)
What you would have to do to make this animate correctly is select the form you want to move in the 3 tempo - Group A, in this case. You would select them from the start, drag the red slider across ALL the page tabs until you get to the 23rd tab - (NOT the 24th). When you have that, click on the Morph Tool and hit "Accept".
Then you go back and click on the first page tab that starts the move... (with Group A selected, of course)... or, in between the 1st and 2nd tabs - which are the 8th note counts 1 and 2. You will see the form is moving ever so slightly. That's fine. Click on the next page tab and you DELETE that transition (for Group A only). Click the next page tab, select the Morph Tool and click "Accept". Select the next page tab and DELETE that transition. Select the next page tab, select the Morph Tool and again hit "Accept". Do you see the pattern here? Or did I lose you??
Lets now do the people that march the 8 steps over the 12 counts (24 page tabs) - Group B. Now, again since we have to use the 8th note beat at the "constant", we ave to break this down as I mentioned before as a move 1, hold 2, etc. This would mean you do the same thing as with Group A by selecting the performers that will be going 8 counts - starting from the first page tab and dragging it all the way across to the 22nd page tab. (NOT the 23rd or 24th). And when you have that selected, just click the Morph Tool and hit "Accept" just t be sure you're set with that and you get ready for another tedious (but simple, once you get the hang of it) process of what I would call "morph/delete".
You go back to the first count and you could again see little movement (secondary count) and that should be set. Then you need to select the next page tab, then DRAG the red slider over TWO page tabs - covering 2 counts. You then DELETE that transition, creating the "hold 2" I was talking about earlier.
Then you go to the next ONE page tab, select Morph Tool and click "Accept". Then the next TWO page tabs - DELETE that transition... etc.
* As a note in figuring the step sizes out with this method, you would divide the people marching the 3's (faster tempo) by 2 - or in half - and those marching the 2's (slower) by 3, or a third. So, if the move for Group A shows the step size to be a 12 to 5 before doing all of the "morph/delete" through the page tabs, their step size will essentially be "approximately" 6 to 5. For Group B, their step size shows 12 to 5 before the "morph/delete", that would mean it would actually be "approximately" 4 to 5.
** I have to say "approximately" because of the one little issue with the step size from count 1 and the rest of the counts. The way this works is just for a work-around for animation purposes only - but with a little flaw. That's the fact that the first count will be a little smaller than the rest, because it was set for the move as a whole 23 or 22 count (step) move, thus being 1/23 or 1/22 of the whole move before the breakdown. In other words, for Group A it'll be a 1/23 step for the first step, followed by 11 steps at about twice that size... or something! Geez, I shoulda majored in math or somethin'. I woulda known how to figure that out. HA!! I think you know what I mean, though. I didn't say this method was "perfect"... just that it works well enough for a semi-accurate animation of the 3 against 2 in Pyware. If i had more time to sit down and do the math, I'd probably be able to figure out the way to make it perfectly even... but I'm stuck with some Sheherazade on today's agenda so I have to put this down and start thinking about work.
I would suggest that you not WRITE it this way initially, rather just write the drill to the faster tempo (larger count - 12, in my example) and watch the step size of the 8's rather than the 12's. You'll have to obviously do a little extra math (or your best educated guess) on the 8's and just undersize them a little extra to make up for their adjusted step when doing it on the move when they incorporate the 2 against 3. There's probably a simple algebra equation to figure this out but I can't think of it right now... if I do, I'll come back and edit this post and let ya know.
So......... in the end, you will get a result like this:
The video is just a simple one showing Group A (blue) going in 3 versus Group B (red) going in 2. The audio sample I used is one I threw together that has a triangle playing the "constant" 8th note beat, the claves doing the 3's and the snare drum doing the 2's.
I know that was a LOT for me to write out, but hopefully that made sense. Since this is in the "Tips and Tricks" section of the forums, I felt it was worth putting out there and something i KNOW others have talked about doing... this may be the only current solution for those that are willing to take the time. I think this could work for any type of off-set marching in drill. You just have to find the common denominator (the "constant") and break it down in this way.
Also, I think that with drill already written, with the insertion of the correct number of counts (8th note breakdown) and the patience of adding those page tabs, going through the "morph/delete" process, a quick finger or thumb to hit that space bar as fast as you need to in order for it to sync and a little patience, you could have a solution that works!
Let me know if ANY of this is confusing. I understand if I went completely over your (or everyone's) head with this.... Maybe some other people can word it better than I can. I'm not really a technician... so... good luck!
This is something I REALLY wanted to figure out this year, as I will be doing this in a drill I'm writing to Korean Folk Song. (that's just the same drill demo with the KFS music I did as a demo). I really want that section in the end that has the 3 against 2 to animate correctly so the director and students/staff can see how this will work. I will obviously print the charts and coordinates prior to modifying this for animation purposes. Or, you could do what I suggested first, but you'll have to DELETE all of the in-between page tabs. The animation will still work!
This was actually something I started messing with last summer but never got to finish. It happens to be something I brought up a long time ago, either with Pyware or some other designers, and there was no way to actually do it...
Fortunately, I found that there IS a way to do it, but it would involve some patience and some extra math.
If you are doing this for animation purposes, here is a solution I came up with. You might laugh or think this is ridiculous, but this is the only way to possibly do it, I believe.
Since we're wanting to use a 3 against 2, the math here would suggest we need to break this down into some sort of subdivision. If you look at how this would line up musically, you would have something like this:
And when you subdivide it, the constant is the 8th note - which suggests we need to think in terms of 6's. (common denominator??? I forgot middle school math
) Breaking it down would be like this musically: 
.....which in turn means we have to think of the drill along the lines of a page tab on each count - meaning you would have to switch from the strong beat per count, to then tapping the space bar per 8th note beat. (confusing, I know).
Lets say the move is 12 counts for the 3's, which would mean 8 counts for the 2's. You would set a page tab per count (insert them, perhaps... shouldn't screw up the drill - but you would have to redo the mp3 sync), and when you have this example number of counts, the page tabs would total 24 between starting set and the end of the ONE move. Although there are 24 page tabs in between, this would only be 12 for the 3's and 8 for the 2's.
The next breakdown is making sure the 12 and 8 line up with the 8th notes. The way this works is you'd have to look it at and how it lines up the way the music is on my second picture - remembering to break it down into an 8th note subdivision. This would mean the following:
Group A - moves 12 steps - move 1, hold 1, move 1, hold 1, etc.
Group B - moves 8 steps - move 1, hold 2, move 1, hold 2, etc.
(these notes on "move 1, hold 1" etc. are in reference to the PAGE TABS)
What you would have to do to make this animate correctly is select the form you want to move in the 3 tempo - Group A, in this case. You would select them from the start, drag the red slider across ALL the page tabs until you get to the 23rd tab - (NOT the 24th). When you have that, click on the Morph Tool and hit "Accept".
Then you go back and click on the first page tab that starts the move... (with Group A selected, of course)... or, in between the 1st and 2nd tabs - which are the 8th note counts 1 and 2. You will see the form is moving ever so slightly. That's fine. Click on the next page tab and you DELETE that transition (for Group A only). Click the next page tab, select the Morph Tool and click "Accept". Select the next page tab and DELETE that transition. Select the next page tab, select the Morph Tool and again hit "Accept". Do you see the pattern here? Or did I lose you??
Lets now do the people that march the 8 steps over the 12 counts (24 page tabs) - Group B. Now, again since we have to use the 8th note beat at the "constant", we ave to break this down as I mentioned before as a move 1, hold 2, etc. This would mean you do the same thing as with Group A by selecting the performers that will be going 8 counts - starting from the first page tab and dragging it all the way across to the 22nd page tab. (NOT the 23rd or 24th). And when you have that selected, just click the Morph Tool and hit "Accept" just t be sure you're set with that and you get ready for another tedious (but simple, once you get the hang of it) process of what I would call "morph/delete".
You go back to the first count and you could again see little movement (secondary count) and that should be set. Then you need to select the next page tab, then DRAG the red slider over TWO page tabs - covering 2 counts. You then DELETE that transition, creating the "hold 2" I was talking about earlier.
Then you go to the next ONE page tab, select Morph Tool and click "Accept". Then the next TWO page tabs - DELETE that transition... etc.
* As a note in figuring the step sizes out with this method, you would divide the people marching the 3's (faster tempo) by 2 - or in half - and those marching the 2's (slower) by 3, or a third. So, if the move for Group A shows the step size to be a 12 to 5 before doing all of the "morph/delete" through the page tabs, their step size will essentially be "approximately" 6 to 5. For Group B, their step size shows 12 to 5 before the "morph/delete", that would mean it would actually be "approximately" 4 to 5.
** I have to say "approximately" because of the one little issue with the step size from count 1 and the rest of the counts. The way this works is just for a work-around for animation purposes only - but with a little flaw. That's the fact that the first count will be a little smaller than the rest, because it was set for the move as a whole 23 or 22 count (step) move, thus being 1/23 or 1/22 of the whole move before the breakdown. In other words, for Group A it'll be a 1/23 step for the first step, followed by 11 steps at about twice that size... or something! Geez, I shoulda majored in math or somethin'. I woulda known how to figure that out. HA!! I think you know what I mean, though.
I didn't say this method was "perfect"... just that it works well enough for a semi-accurate animation of the 3 against 2 in Pyware. If i had more time to sit down and do the math, I'd probably be able to figure out the way to make it perfectly even... but I'm stuck with some Sheherazade on today's agenda so I have to put this down and start thinking about work. I would suggest that you not WRITE it this way initially, rather just write the drill to the faster tempo (larger count - 12, in my example) and watch the step size of the 8's rather than the 12's. You'll have to obviously do a little extra math (or your best educated guess) on the 8's and just undersize them a little extra to make up for their adjusted step when doing it on the move when they incorporate the 2 against 3. There's probably a simple algebra equation to figure this out but I can't think of it right now... if I do, I'll come back and edit this post and let ya know.
So......... in the end, you will get a result like this:
The video is just a simple one showing Group A (blue) going in 3 versus Group B (red) going in 2. The audio sample I used is one I threw together that has a triangle playing the "constant" 8th note beat, the claves doing the 3's and the snare drum doing the 2's.
I know that was a LOT for me to write out, but hopefully that made sense. Since this is in the "Tips and Tricks" section of the forums, I felt it was worth putting out there and something i KNOW others have talked about doing... this may be the only current solution for those that are willing to take the time. I think this could work for any type of off-set marching in drill. You just have to find the common denominator (the "constant") and break it down in this way.
Also, I think that with drill already written, with the insertion of the correct number of counts (8th note breakdown) and the patience of adding those page tabs, going through the "morph/delete" process, a quick finger or thumb to hit that space bar as fast as you need to in order for it to sync and a little patience, you could have a solution that works!
Let me know if ANY of this is confusing. I understand if I went completely over your (or everyone's) head with this.... Maybe some other people can word it better than I can. I'm not really a technician... so... good luck!
This is something I REALLY wanted to figure out this year, as I will be doing this in a drill I'm writing to Korean Folk Song. (that's just the same drill demo with the KFS music I did as a demo). I really want that section in the end that has the 3 against 2 to animate correctly so the director and students/staff can see how this will work. I will obviously print the charts and coordinates prior to modifying this for animation purposes. Or, you could do what I suggested first, but you'll have to DELETE all of the in-between page tabs. The animation will still work!
Last edited by George on Sun Jul 19, 2015 3:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Split Tempo Movement?
George,George wrote:are you trying to do this merely for the sake of seeing it animated? or is it just to calculate the step sizes for the people going 3's and the people going 2's?
I may have an idea, but it's somewhat complex.
Thanks for the tip (whew, when you write a tip you don't mess around!) I want to do it for the animation so I can show the total effect.
In a nutshell: the band is forming into a angled (to the front sideline) company front and on the step off, the edges will (in 3 time) move away from the form in seemingly random directions, while the center of the front moves majestically forward... at each measure a new group of 'edge' performers will 'wash away' until only the very center of the front actually reaches the point the entire front 'would' have reached had they all moved as one through the approx. 32 count phrase. The idea is to 'show' the front but have it dissolve quickly away to almost nothing... the music moves in 2:3 anyway, and visually I think it will be very interesting to see unfold.
As I've mentioned in other postings, we are doing an asymmetrical show design for the most part this year, so when I 'show" a symmetrical form, I want it to do the unexpected... at least most of the time. Make sense?
Thanks!
David R. Wilson
North Thurston High School
Solstice Colorguard & Winterguard
North Thurston High School
Solstice Colorguard & Winterguard
Re: Split Tempo Movement?
I don't know if this will help... but check it out and let me know if you have any questions. 
