Hey all,
Before I send something to Dustin, i wanted to see what you guys had to say about this.
After receiving feedback from HS band directors, this is what I am thinking....but I would love to hear pros and cons of these changes from you guys.
#1. Is it redundant to have the first line be "Performer:" and then have the next line start off as "Performing as cast member:" Or maybe there is a use for this that I am not understanding?
#2. The first thing that band directors tell me they look for when sorting the coordinate sheets is the symbol, THEN the label...but this is backwards in the coordinate sheets.
#3. The number symbol (#) is redundant and takes up space, as well as wastes ink when printing out a LOT of coordinate sheets.
#4. The same can be said about the (HS) and (NCAA) settings, and I swear these were not always here. Perhaps instead of using them in this manner, we can have something that says "High School Hashes" or "College Hashes" at the top of the coordinate sheet?
I've attached a PDF of what I would love the coordinate sheet printouts to look like....any thoughts?
Edit: It won't let me attach, so I put it on my website:
http://www.nikknakks.net/coordinates.jpg
What could we add or tweak that would make this even more useful to band directors?
Coordinate Sheet suggestions
Moderator:PywareTechSupport
Re: Coordinate Sheet suggestions
I would agree. I have to tell my kids "just ignore this" a lot when teaching them how to read coordinate sheets.Tsar Nikk wrote: #1. Is it redundant to have the first line be "Performer:" and then have the next line start off as "Performing as cast member:" Or maybe there is a use for this that I am not understanding?
My beef here is that no matter how I sort them, there are always a handful that get printed out of order at the end of the print job anyway!Tsar Nikk wrote: #2. The first thing that band directors tell me they look for when sorting the coordinate sheets is the symbol, THEN the label...but this is backwards in the coordinate sheets.
I agree 100%.Tsar Nikk wrote: #3. The number symbol (#) is redundant and takes up space, as well as wastes ink when printing out a LOT of coordinate sheets.
AGREE! And how about getting rid of the count number on drill pages. Who cares if this drill page is count 457 in the show?Tsar Nikk wrote: #4. The same can be said about the (HS) and (NCAA) settings, and I swear these were not always here. Perhaps instead of using them in this manner, we can have something that says "High School Hashes" or "College Hashes" at the top of the coordinate sheet?
Re: Coordinate Sheet suggestions
I'll give my 2-cents as well.
Know that I am only a designer and not a director/teacher, but when I look at the coordinates and see what is on there right now, I would also prefer it to be simplified and I would suggest it show less clutter as well. I wouldn't necessarily change any of the wording, but only put on the coordinates what absolutely NEEDS to be on there.
If anything, I think there needs to be more customizable options for us to utilize regarding what is or isn't shown on the coordinate sheets. Since it's obvious that some directors want more info than others, as has been mentioned here before, I think being able to add/subtract certain info on the card will make for a more efficient experience when teaching/learning the drill.
Like I said, I'm not a director, but if it were me teaching or being taught, the information that I know and the way I teach, I would prefer it to look like the following sample...
First, this is the way it prints by default (ver. 5.0.6):
My modified version - simplified to show ONLY what I think needs to be on there:
So, really all that's on the coordinates now is what absolutely needs to be on there, in my opinion, leaving out all the stuff I tell students to ignore anyway. Like the "Count" column... that just adds clutter and confusion. As you can see on the original coordinate printout, I think it can get cleaned up a bit, especially since you can see that it's so tight from the "set" number to the "move" number to the "count" number.
I think the "count" column is just a carry-over from the pre-java versions of pyware 3D where you had to enter in the page tabs via the accumulated counts.. if that's correct... (accumulated?)
The addition of the "Move" column has been a HUGE benefit to giving the students the info they need, making the "Count" column all but obsolete. I think having the "Move" AND the "Count" column on the coordinate sheet together just creates too much clutter and is somewhat redundant.
In the past when I taught drill, and before the "Move" column of counts-per-set was added in later generations of Pyware, the "Count" column was always something I/we told the students to ignore as it had nothing to do with anything they were marching. We saved them the trouble of doing the math themselves and told them the number of counts each "Move" was, which they would write down in their own personal drill book. Just like combia1 said - there's no need for them to know that page 42 of the drill is the 329th count of the tune... that just has no real relevance to the show in any way to the students, except maybe only to us designers when working with the program. (emphasis on "maybe". I don't ever pay attention to those numbers... I just care about the counts on the individual moves).
Again, this is purely what I feel based on what I was taught/teach myself, and what I believe needs to be there and what doesn't. All a student needs on their coordinate sheet is their drill number/label and for it to be much more prominent (as I show in my example and not buried in that row with all the other stuff like performer ID, symbol, etc.). The title of the tune/file, their coordinates, the counts of the "Move" (not the accumulated counts).... and getting rid of the (NCAA)/(HS) hash info tagged at the end of the "front-to-back" portion of the individual coordinate sheets, as Nikk mentioned. I've never known of anyone (personally) that was teaching/learning drill that relied on the (NCAA)/(HS) indicators to know what hash they were using. It's our responsibility as designers to communicate with the directors to find out what hashes they use - we just incorporate that into the grid design we use when we write the drill, and the rest is up to the students and teachers.
All in all, with regards to the improvements to the coordinate sheets since earlier versions of 3D/Virtual 3D/Pyware Java, I think they have gotten better and cleaner with each update. I think the next step is simply finding a way to either click a check-box indicating exactly what to print/not print on the coordinates or eliminating some things all together that just don't need to be there. We don't have columns that say things like "Left foot step off" or "Facing front" - because those really aren't necessary. Same goes for some of the previously mentioned info. (although, you know someone is out there thinking "I wish they would indicate a left or right foot step off on each set).
A nice thing, though, is that we have MANY more options than we used to and I'm very thankful for that. Maybe if there are more directors out there that we could get to chime in on this, that would help a bit more in "simplifying" it, which is what I believe should be the primary focus here.
(PS - I know that the "performer ID" and "printed on..." info on the coordinates is removable... i just didn't modify that particular coordinate sheet as it was just a copy of the original one I used for this example).
Anyway, that's my little input on this topic - strictly from my personal point of view, as I would like to see it if I were teaching or I were a student using them. Simple and to the point... er, dot?!
Know that I am only a designer and not a director/teacher, but when I look at the coordinates and see what is on there right now, I would also prefer it to be simplified and I would suggest it show less clutter as well. I wouldn't necessarily change any of the wording, but only put on the coordinates what absolutely NEEDS to be on there.
If anything, I think there needs to be more customizable options for us to utilize regarding what is or isn't shown on the coordinate sheets. Since it's obvious that some directors want more info than others, as has been mentioned here before, I think being able to add/subtract certain info on the card will make for a more efficient experience when teaching/learning the drill.
Like I said, I'm not a director, but if it were me teaching or being taught, the information that I know and the way I teach, I would prefer it to look like the following sample...
First, this is the way it prints by default (ver. 5.0.6):
My modified version - simplified to show ONLY what I think needs to be on there:
So, really all that's on the coordinates now is what absolutely needs to be on there, in my opinion, leaving out all the stuff I tell students to ignore anyway. Like the "Count" column... that just adds clutter and confusion. As you can see on the original coordinate printout, I think it can get cleaned up a bit, especially since you can see that it's so tight from the "set" number to the "move" number to the "count" number.
I think the "count" column is just a carry-over from the pre-java versions of pyware 3D where you had to enter in the page tabs via the accumulated counts.. if that's correct... (accumulated?)
The addition of the "Move" column has been a HUGE benefit to giving the students the info they need, making the "Count" column all but obsolete. I think having the "Move" AND the "Count" column on the coordinate sheet together just creates too much clutter and is somewhat redundant. In the past when I taught drill, and before the "Move" column of counts-per-set was added in later generations of Pyware, the "Count" column was always something I/we told the students to ignore as it had nothing to do with anything they were marching. We saved them the trouble of doing the math themselves and told them the number of counts each "Move" was, which they would write down in their own personal drill book. Just like combia1 said - there's no need for them to know that page 42 of the drill is the 329th count of the tune... that just has no real relevance to the show in any way to the students, except maybe only to us designers when working with the program. (emphasis on "maybe". I don't ever pay attention to those numbers... I just care about the counts on the individual moves).
Again, this is purely what I feel based on what I was taught/teach myself, and what I believe needs to be there and what doesn't. All a student needs on their coordinate sheet is their drill number/label and for it to be much more prominent (as I show in my example and not buried in that row with all the other stuff like performer ID, symbol, etc.). The title of the tune/file, their coordinates, the counts of the "Move" (not the accumulated counts).... and getting rid of the (NCAA)/(HS) hash info tagged at the end of the "front-to-back" portion of the individual coordinate sheets, as Nikk mentioned. I've never known of anyone (personally) that was teaching/learning drill that relied on the (NCAA)/(HS) indicators to know what hash they were using. It's our responsibility as designers to communicate with the directors to find out what hashes they use - we just incorporate that into the grid design we use when we write the drill, and the rest is up to the students and teachers.
All in all, with regards to the improvements to the coordinate sheets since earlier versions of 3D/Virtual 3D/Pyware Java, I think they have gotten better and cleaner with each update. I think the next step is simply finding a way to either click a check-box indicating exactly what to print/not print on the coordinates or eliminating some things all together that just don't need to be there. We don't have columns that say things like "Left foot step off" or "Facing front" - because those really aren't necessary. Same goes for some of the previously mentioned info. (although, you know someone is out there thinking "I wish they would indicate a left or right foot step off on each set).
A nice thing, though, is that we have MANY more options than we used to and I'm very thankful for that. Maybe if there are more directors out there that we could get to chime in on this, that would help a bit more in "simplifying" it, which is what I believe should be the primary focus here. (PS - I know that the "performer ID" and "printed on..." info on the coordinates is removable... i just didn't modify that particular coordinate sheet as it was just a copy of the original one I used for this example).
Anyway, that's my little input on this topic - strictly from my personal point of view, as I would like to see it if I were teaching or I were a student using them. Simple and to the point... er, dot?!
Last edited by George on Sun Jul 19, 2015 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Coordinate Sheet suggestions
All great points, George.
I have an example of how annoying and intrusive the coordinate sheet hash markings can be (see attached). I really think that we can remove this info all together, but if it is absolutely needed, it can be moved to a header like in my example in the earlier post of mine.
Another thing: It would be great if the symbol that appears on the coordinate sheet matches the symbol used in PyJava2 font. What we get now is the corresponding key stroke, like % for the dot or "q" for the big asterisk....and I ALWAYS get a few band directors who can't seem to figure out what the symbol is by process of elimination. Sigh.
Dustin...any chance of having the contents of this thread put on the "maybe" list for updates in Version 6 (or 5.1 or whatever you guys will be working on)? I really think uncluttering the coordinate sheets would be helpful for the people cleaning drill. As you can see in my attached example, there are three lines that are only in there because of the (HS) hash designation.
Edit: Damn, well....I guess uploading attachments is disabled on this board. But I think you all know what I am taking about.
I have an example of how annoying and intrusive the coordinate sheet hash markings can be (see attached). I really think that we can remove this info all together, but if it is absolutely needed, it can be moved to a header like in my example in the earlier post of mine.
Another thing: It would be great if the symbol that appears on the coordinate sheet matches the symbol used in PyJava2 font. What we get now is the corresponding key stroke, like % for the dot or "q" for the big asterisk....and I ALWAYS get a few band directors who can't seem to figure out what the symbol is by process of elimination. Sigh.
Dustin...any chance of having the contents of this thread put on the "maybe" list for updates in Version 6 (or 5.1 or whatever you guys will be working on)? I really think uncluttering the coordinate sheets would be helpful for the people cleaning drill. As you can see in my attached example, there are three lines that are only in there because of the (HS) hash designation.
Edit: Damn, well....I guess uploading attachments is disabled on this board. But I think you all know what I am taking about.
++
np
np